Posted by Dr Fro 4:21 PM

From the mailbag:

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To: Dr Fro
From: KK
Subject: Holland Casino

I played in a Euro 60 buyin NL tournament at the Holland Casino in Amsterdam last week. I enjoyed the game and had some success. Each player started with 500 in chips. In the first half hour, I tripled my stack. The game was really loose pre-flop during the unlimited rebuy period. I was catching good starting hands and frequently making a legitimate hand on the flop. My preflop raises would get multiple callers and I could usually buy the pot with a raise post flop. I felt my play was pretty solid, but honestly did not have many tough decisions.

In the second half hour, I didn't get many playable hands, at the end of the first hour when the rebuy period ended, I was still around 1500 in chips. I was chip leader for most of the first hour. Unfortunately, a few people passed me in the chip standings and I was probable 3rd or 4th at the table and it was obvious that I needed to make a move.

Blinds are 30/60. I was dealt A7 offsuit. A preflop raise to 200 reduces to 3 players including me. Flop is As5s2s. I bet 300 having hit my A but scared of a flush/flush draw. At this point, I think you would tell me that my raise was too small (should have been at least the pot?). I get raised all-in by the second player and the third player calls. At this point I don't believe my hand to be the best hand. I figure one player to be on a draw and the other the have made a hand. At this point, I am almost certainly beaten as A7 would only beat A3, A4 and A6 and the straight draw gives outs to A3 and A4.
I don't remember Slansky's position on this but…

I call anyway, mainly content with my play to that point, convinced I was unlikely to finish in the money and in consideration of my 2 coworkers that had reluctantly come to the casino and opted not to play.

I am of course beaten. The first raiser shows 4 flush with the Ks and the second shows A5. At least I had the read right. The spade draw hits. I had each player covered and am now down to 400 in chips.

Next hand I am dealt a pair of 6s in early position. I raise all-in. Some jackass* asks me if I am on tilt. I wasn't on tilt if that is reserved for playing poorly out of frustration (I had played poorly intentionally, that may be stupid but its not tilt). The prior hand was a bad call made with the right read and for reasons unrelated to poker. With short stack, I think my only choice was to go all-in with the pair pre-flop. Would you agree? I get called by Jacks and my night is over (at least at the poker tables).

*Unfortunately, my most satisfying hand of the evening came against the same player that eventually busted me. I was dealt a pair of 2s. I think a couple of players had limped in and he certainly had. I raised the 4X the blind from late position. He stared at me for a while and played with his cards as if he had a hard decision. When he finally folded, it was all I could do not to show one of the 2s. I regretted that I did not until he busted me later.

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From: Dr Fro
To: KK

This is the exact situation that I have described here before. You are in a tournament faced with a tough decision. In a ring game, you muck, no problem. But you gotta make a move and fast. What to do...

The 2 questions you have to ask yourself AT THE TIME YOU MAKE THE RAISE are

1) If I get re-raised all-in on this street or a later street, will I call?
2) Is it extremely likely that I will get raised on this street or a later street before the hand is done?

If the answer is yes (and here we know it is yes) then you may as well get all those chips in now. That way, your EV goes up due to the possibility that a better hand folds. Your only other alternative is to check/fold. The "tweener" area that is a small bet with an all-in call is not the way to go.

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8 Comment(s):

Posted by  Johnnymac, at 7:58 AM, May 10, 2005  

For the record, Morris wrote that, not me. But as Fro would likely well know, I agree with Morris 100%.

As near as I can tell from the email, "KK" wasn't short stacked or anything (60/1500=4%), so what the heck was so attractive about Ace-nothing?

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Posted by  Junelli, at 12:06 PM, May 10, 2005  

I disagree that "biggest" mistake was calling $200 preflop with A7. While this is certainly a loose call, it's not the end of the world. The end of the world occurred with the post flop decision.

First a quick caveat: I like to play unconventional hands and might've made the same preflop call you did. However, whenever I make these kind of calls, I quietly tell myself (before the flop comes out), "This flop better hit me in the gut for me to stay in. Otherwise I can only continue playing if (1) everyone else is extremely weak, or (2) there are good scare cards allowing me to make a move." Thus, I know ahead of time, that I will only be betting for value in the very rare circumstance that I flop 2 pair, trips, or top pair (7s) with all undercards. In short, I would call preflop, but be ready to get away from the hand upon a showing of any strength from my opponents. Look for a reason to fold!

Back to the hand: All signs point to fold on the flop. In my opinion you were right to lead out on the flop. This is a information/feeler bet to find out where you are. In this case, you found out pretty quick: 2nd player raises all-in and the 3rd player calls.

In mind, there is a 0% chance your hand is good right now. Even worse, you have no draw, so your hand cannot improve. If there are draws (which there were in this case), your hand could only get worse. Because there were all-ins in front of you, those players couldn't make any more decisions.

In my mind, you can only call in 2 situations:
1. You hand is the best right now (not very likely at all), or
2. You hand has outs/draw to become the best hand (not at all likely).

If one of them had an Ace, you were almost certainly outkicked. If one of them held a draw, you weren't a big favorite. If one held and Ace and the other held a draw, you were probably drawing dead. If they held 2 pair or a set you were similarly in very bad shape.

Therefore, you were faced with a situation in which you were behind, and had no real chanch of catching up.

A clear fold in my book.

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Posted by  Junelli, at 2:13 PM, May 10, 2005  

First, I agree completely that calling preflop with A7 was a mistake: that hand is exceptionally bad: no kicker, no flush/straight draw opportunities; big blind was raised 3x; he is out of position the entire hand.

Clearly, calling in this situation wasn't correct. He should've folded. However, there is no way you can call the preflop decision a bigger "mistake" than calling 2 all-ins on the flop. I mean, c'mon!! The preflop mistake cost him $200. The post-flop mistake cost him his stack.

He could've checked/folded and not put an additional penny into the pot (thereby losing only $200). He could've made a smaller feeler bet (since you seem to think that 25% of your chips cannot be defined as a "feeler" bet). **Remember that even after the $300 feeler bet, he still would've had T700 in chips (not terrible considering the blinds are only 30-60. He is still alive and would not yet be on the lifeline.

I disagree that you only call if you "think the Ace high is good, or making a pair of them will be good" Tournament or not, you can call with hands which you think are not good at the time, because you either hope they will improve to be the best, or you think you have a chance at making the players lay their hands down.

Against weak-passive players, I will play hands knowing that they're not the best, but under the assumption that I can steal it later if the opportunity presents itself.

Of course, this hand was played out of position, so the chances of stealing were almost nil (especially given the pot size on the flop).

All in all, I agree with you about the preflop decision. However, I don't think he was pot committed at that point, and clearly should've listened when everything screamed "fold". In my humble opinion, that was the biggest mistake made.

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Posted by  Junelli, at 3:10 PM, May 10, 2005  

I called because I "have" a pair....

I'm gonna rip your heart out!! I'll destroy you!! Hahaha!!

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Posted by  Anonymous, at 1:35 PM, May 11, 2005  

Morris is exactly right. No way I call with A7 offsuit against a raiser and caller in tournament for a significant portion of my stack (unless I am VERY short stacked, have posted a blind, and need to make a move).

Most of the time I fold. If the players are weak, I might raise all-in preflop as a squeeze play.

Calling is terrible because you don't know what you want to hit besides 2 pair or trip 7s, which happens 3.5% of the time. If you flop an Ace or a 7, you have no way of knowing whether either is good.

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Posted by  Anonymous, at 3:57 PM, May 11, 2005  

This is KK.

I have had one other hand posted here that was universally criticized. Good to know that a few months of playing hasn't improved my decisions.

I want to clarify a misconception in the comments. I did not call the preflop raise. I made the preflop raise from early position received a couple of calls (by Kx and A5). I think that play is more justifiable than the call that is being discussed, but I welcome thoughts on that point. I apologize if my original message was unclear.

Next, the call of all-in bets after that was bad play. In the message I mentioned that I knew I was dead when I called and that it was bad play. I had other reasons to wrap up the evening, so I did.

Thanks again for your collective thoughts. I appreciate the advice and try to take it to heart (the mind is willing but occassionally unable).

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Posted by  Anonymous, at 12:09 PM, May 12, 2005  

I understand now. Thanks for clearing that up KK. Was the table full? Or shorthanded? What position were you - UTG? Button? In between? Were the callers in the blinds? Or did they call 200 cold?

A7 offsuit can be a raising hand short handed or opening the pot in late position. And 200 is a reasonable raise with 30-60 blinds.

But if the table was full or near full, and you are in early or even mid-position, I probably fold A7 offsuit under most tournament table conditions. I hate offsuit aces below Ace-Ten: if I get called, I don't know what I want to hit.

Let's think about leading with $300 into a $600 to $690 pot with a 3 Flush board. Betting "as if" you have a small flush or a straight, you are fearful of another spade coming out and counterfeiting your hand. So a small flush or a straight is going to overbet the pot, not bet half the pot. Conversely, the nut flush is probably going to check, hoping a free card improves someone else's hand. So, if I am playing that hand and you bet 300 at that pot, I put you on either a draw, or an Ace, or perhaps both.

Bottom line, you open yourself up to being bluffed with your 300 bet. And if you are raised, the bad thing is you don't know whether they are strong in their raise, or whether they read you as weak.

So, in first position, I would probably check it, or overbet the pot and try to represent a small flush.

Your last call is not good poker. You have to beat both hands to win. What 2 hands do you expect to be ahead of on that board?

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Posted by  Junelli, at 11:21 PM, May 12, 2005  

If I had a nickel for everytime my play has been criticized...

:)

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